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before there is a comprehensive set of guidelines that could be used by = developers. Furthermore, returning to your original question, these = guidelines seem to be an alternative to testing against WCAG Guidelines = rather than an addition to them. A separate comment made in Brussels by Adobe suggests that the best way = to include accessibility is to use Adobe's own products. This is = worrying as it seems to limit developers to specific proprietory = products which would seem to fly in the face of Adobe's normal open = approach. I would suggest that they need to follow the W3C lead and = develop Authoring Tools Guidelines. These could be used by developers = of other products to allow everyone produce accessible PDF documents. A long, long way to go ... Take Care, Gerry Ellis Tel +353-(0)1 282-7791 Mob +353-(0)85 716-8665 If you don't know where you're going, How will you know when you get there? ----- Original Message -----=20 From: D=F3nal Rice=20 To: Irish Design-for-all and e-Accessibility Network=20 Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 8:43 AM Subject: Re: [Irl-dean] Accessibility of PDF Documents Gerry, thanks for this 'heads up'. I would like to know (from presumably = Andrew Kirkpatrick?) what is the current status re the development of = success criteria for the testing of content and applications using = formats and technologies such as PDF and Flex against WCAG 2.0. It would = appear to me that developers and designers and indeed auditors of web = content and applications do not have the techniques documents or success = criteria to allow them to develop for or audit against WCAG 2.0. Am I missing something here? Regards, D=F3nal. 2008/9/11 Eamon Mag Uidhir <eamon at maguidhir.com> That's a very interesting conversation with Adobe. Can anybody help with the following query? If somebody wants to avoid Adobe licensing costs (and Microsoft licensing costs), is there a surefire way to get OpenOffice's PDF output of a word processing document (whether originated in Word or = in OpenOffice itself) to be accessible? Is it just a question of keeping it simple and using a proper = heading style hierarchy? What do tables need to have in them to get them to = be accessible when exported to PDF? OpenOffice doesn't seem to offer users any means of tweaking the PDF Export function (which from version 2.4 is providing a bookmarks = tree based on heading strructure and not just a flat printable version of the document) so it appears from a superficial investigation that = any accessibility aspects in the output will need to be built into the source document. Eamon =C9amon Mag Uidhir ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' eamon at maguidhir.com RESPONDING TO Gerry Ellis <gellis at gofree.indigo.ie>: > Hi, > > I wrote a while back that I am in contact with Adobe in relation = to the > accessibility of their products including documents in PDF format. > > Please find below some questions I asked and answers from their > accessibility manager in the States (his answers are preceeded by = the > letters AWK). > > I will meet him shortly when he is in Dublin. I would be = interested in your > comments on the answers below ASAP so that I can have further = discussions > with him before he arrives. > > Thanks. > > > > Take Care, > > Gerry Ellis > > Tel +353-(0)1 282-7791 > Mob +353-(0)85 716-8665 > > If you don't know where you're going, > How will you know when you get there? > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Original Message =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > 1. We understand that the free Adobe Acrobat Reader deliberately = slows down > the opening of PDF documents as compared with the professional = product. If a > screen reader or other assistive technology is detected this = slowing down > should be skipped. > > AWK: This is not true, totally opposite. Acrobat9 /Reader 9 even = include > something known as Delay Load Plugins so if a PDF document doesn't = need a > plug-in, like Forms, then the app launches much faster for = everyone. There > isn't a difference for AT users, except if the document isn't = tagged, in > which case there is a delay while Acrobat adds the tags. > > 2. Navigating around PDF documents is dreadfully poor as compared = to doing > so in a WORD or Text document or on a web site. For instance, when = the user > performs a search he/she cannot then return to the body of the = document. > > AWK: we'll need more info here, can you navigate a word document = by > headings? I'm not sure this is true about Search but also need = more detail > or a demo. > > 3. Access to Tables within PDF documents is particularly poor. > > AWK: is this for tables that have been authored correctly also? > > 4. When reading documents that contain more than one column of = information > or which contain boxes within the main texxt, the text is jumbled = when read > using a screen reader. > > AWK: sounds like poor authoring for the PDF in question. We can do = a demo. > > 5. Exporting PDF documents to text does not help as the results = are often > the same as described in 4. above. > > AWK: sounds like poor authoring - if the document is tagged well = do you get > the same result? > > 6. Using forms within PDF documents is particularly troublesome. = This is > greatly increased when the dynamic forms facility is used to = increase the > complexity of the forms. > > AWK: we'll need more info here - the comment is a little too = abstract. > > 7. Problems using Adobe PS and Flash were also reported and = several aspects > of these products are inaccessible. This includes an inability to = access > some buttons and to export the data to more accessible formats. > > AWK: This is using the Flash authoring tool and Photoshop = authoring tool? > > 8. Guidelines > There seems to be two distinct pieces of work being done on = Guidelines: > a) EUAIN. (The Adaptive Content Network) > www.euain.org > This project has worked with CEN leading to a workshop on = accessible > documentation. Details can be found at: > = <http://www.cen.eu/cenorm/businessdomains/businessdomains/isss/activity/w= s-dpa.asp> > > b) AIIM - The Enterprise Content Management Association > www.aiim.org > The Universal Accessibility Group of AIIM is working with the = National > Federation of the Blind and others in the U. S. to develop = guidelines on > making PDF documents accessible. See > http://www.aiim.org/standards/article.aspx?ID=3D27861 > > Are these two initiatives compatible? Are they working towards a = common set > of guidelines? What is being done to implement these guidelines? = How can we > as users know that a document is developed according to these = guidelines? > > AWK: I need to learn more about EUAIN to comment.will read up. > > 9. Interoperability > There is a great need to develop the ability to convert PDF and PS = documents > gracefully and without jumbling text into other formats including = XML, > DAISY, CHM, html and .BRF (Braille). > > AWK: Will be interested in how you prioritize this list of = formats. > > 10. Updating the Software > A box frequently appears asking if the software should be updated. = This is > just an annoyance. Also, the download is very large so is not = suitable to be > download by many people who can only afford relatively old = computers and > slow Internet access. There is a high unemployment rate amongst = people with > disabilities, thus they frequently do not have the disposable = income to > afford faster machines and Internet access. > > AWK: A familiar comment - this doesn't impact AT users = disproportionately, > it is troublesome for many. You can uncheck "check for updates" in = the > preferences, but the updates are valuable when there are patches = for > security or other issues. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Irl-dean mailing list > Irl-dean at list.eeng.dcu.ie > http://list.eeng.dcu.ie/mailman/listinfo/irl-dean > _______________________________________________ Irl-dean mailing list Irl-dean at list.eeng.dcu.ie http://list.eeng.dcu.ie/mailman/listinfo/irl-dean --=20 D=F3nal Rice Senior ICT Advisor Centre for Excellence in Universal Design National Disability Authority email: drice at nda.ie, drice.nda at gmail.com Tel: + 353 (0)1 608 0430 http://www.universaldesign.ie http://www.accessIT.nda.ie -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- _______________________________________________ Irl-dean mailing list Irl-dean at list.eeng.dcu.ie http://list.eeng.dcu.ie/mailman/listinfo/irl-dean ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C917ED.04884FE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16705" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi, Donal et al,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My original email to Andrew (see below) = mentions=20 two sets of design guidelines. From what I can tell these were developed = independently of each other. Andrew does not seem to know about those = developed=20 in conjunction with the European Standards Body CEN; his comment=20 was:</FONT></DIV> <DIV>AWK: I need to learn more about EUAIN to comment.will read = up.</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>From this and other comments I believe = that Adobe=20 have a long way to go before there is a comprehensive set of guidelines = that=20 could be used by developers. Furthermore, returning to your original = question,=20 these guidelines seem to be an alternative to testing against WCAG = Guidelines=20 rather than an addition to them.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A separate comment made in Brussels by = Adobe=20 suggests that the best way to include accessibility is to use Adobe's = own=20 products. This is worrying as it seems to limit developers to specific=20 proprietory products which would seem to fly in the face of Adobe's = normal open=20 approach. I would suggest that they need to follow the W3C lead and = develop=20 Authoring Tools Guidelines. These could be used by = developers of=20 other products to allow everyone produce accessible PDF = documents.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A long, long way to go ...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Take Care,</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Gerry Ellis</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Tel +353-(0)1 282-7791<BR>Mob +353-(0)85 716-8665</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>If you don't know where you're going,<BR>How will you know when you = get=20 there?<BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B>=20 <A title=3Ddrice.nda at gmail.com = href=3D"mailto:drice.nda at gmail.com">D=F3nal Rice</A>=20 </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=3Dirl-dean at list.eeng.dcu.ie=20 href=3D"mailto:irl-dean at list.eeng.dcu.ie">Irish Design-for-all and=20 e-Accessibility Network</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 16, = 2008 8:43=20 AM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Irl-dean] = Accessibility of=20 PDF Documents</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr>Gerry,<BR>thanks for this 'heads up'. I would = like to know=20 (from presumably Andrew Kirkpatrick?) what is the current status re = the=20 development of success criteria for the testing of content and = applications=20 using formats and technologies such as PDF and Flex against WCAG 2.0. = It would=20 appear to me that developers and designers and indeed auditors of web = content=20 and applications do not have the techniques documents or success = criteria to=20 allow them to develop for or audit against WCAG 2.0.<BR><BR>Am I = missing=20 something here?<BR>Regards,<BR>D=F3nal.<BR><BR> <DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>2008/9/11 Eamon Mag Uidhir <SPAN = dir=3Dltr><<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:eamon at maguidhir.com">eamon at maguidhir.com</A>></SPAN><BR= > <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20 style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: = rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid"><FONT=20 face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><BR><BR><BR>That's a very interesting = conversation=20 with Adobe.<BR><BR>Can anybody help with the following = query?<BR><BR>If=20 somebody wants to avoid Adobe licensing costs (and = Microsoft<BR>licensing=20 costs), is there a surefire way to get OpenOffice's PDF<BR>output of = a word=20 processing document (whether originated in Word or in<BR>OpenOffice = itself)=20 to be accessible?<BR><BR>Is it just a question of keeping it simple = and=20 using a proper heading<BR>style hierarchy? What do tables need to = have in=20 them to get them to be<BR>accessible when exported to = PDF?<BR><BR>OpenOffice=20 doesn't seem to offer users any means of tweaking the PDF<BR>Export = function=20 (which from version 2.4 is providing a bookmarks tree<BR>based on = heading=20 strructure and not just a flat printable version of<BR>the document) = so it=20 appears from a superficial investigation that any<BR>accessibility = aspects=20 in the output will need to be built into the<BR>source=20 document.<BR><BR>Eamon<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR> = =C9amon Mag=20 Uidhir<BR>'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''<BR> = =20 <A=20 = href=3D"mailto:eamon at maguidhir.com">eamon at maguidhir.com</A><BR><BR><BR><B= R>RESPONDING=20 TO Gerry Ellis <<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:gellis at gofree.indigo.ie">gellis at gofree.indigo.ie</A>>:<= BR> <DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV class=3DWj3C7c><FONT face=3DArial = size=3D2></FONT><BR><BR><BR>>=20 Hi,<BR>><BR>> I wrote a while back that I am in contact with = Adobe in=20 relation to the<BR>> accessibility of their products including = documents=20 in PDF format.<BR>><BR>> Please find below some questions I = asked and=20 answers from their<BR>> accessibility manager in the States (his = answers=20 are preceeded by the<BR>> letters AWK).<BR>><BR>> I will = meet him=20 shortly when he is in Dublin. I would be interested in your<BR>> = comments=20 on the answers below ASAP so that I can have further = discussions<BR>>=20 with him before he arrives.<BR>><BR>>=20 Thanks.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Take Care,<BR>><BR>> = Gerry=20 Ellis<BR>><BR>> Tel +353-(0)1 282-7791<BR>> Mob +353-(0)85=20 716-8665<BR>><BR>> If you don't know where you're = going,<BR>> How=20 will you know when you get there?<BR>><BR>><BR>> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20 Original Message =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>><BR>> = 1. We understand that=20 the free Adobe Acrobat Reader deliberately slows down<BR>> the = opening of=20 PDF documents as compared with the professional product. If = a<BR>> screen=20 reader or other assistive technology is detected this slowing = down<BR>>=20 should be skipped.<BR>><BR>> AWK: This is not true, totally = opposite.=20 Acrobat9 /Reader 9 even include<BR>> something known as Delay = Load=20 Plugins so if a PDF document doesn't need a<BR>> plug-in, like = Forms,=20 then the app launches much faster for everyone. There<BR>> isn't = a=20 difference for AT users, except if the document isn't tagged, = in<BR>>=20 which case there is a delay while Acrobat adds the = tags.<BR>><BR>> 2.=20 Navigating around PDF documents is dreadfully poor as compared to=20 doing<BR>> so in a WORD or Text document or on a web site. For = instance,=20 when the user<BR>> performs a search he/she cannot then return to = the=20 body of the document.<BR>><BR>> AWK: we'll need more info = here, can=20 you navigate a word document by<BR>> headings? I'm not sure this = is true=20 about Search but also need more detail<BR>> or a = demo.<BR>><BR>> 3.=20 Access to Tables within PDF documents is particularly = poor.<BR>><BR>>=20 AWK: is this for tables that have been authored correctly=20 also?<BR>><BR>> 4. When reading documents that contain more = than one=20 column of information<BR>> or which contain boxes within the main = texxt,=20 the text is jumbled when read<BR>> using a screen = reader.<BR>><BR>>=20 AWK: sounds like poor authoring for the PDF in question. We can do a = demo.<BR>><BR>> 5. Exporting PDF documents to text does not = help as=20 the results are often<BR>> the same as described in 4.=20 above.<BR>><BR>> AWK: sounds like poor authoring - if the = document is=20 tagged well do you get<BR>> the same result?<BR>><BR>> 6. = Using=20 forms within PDF documents is particularly troublesome. This = is<BR>>=20 greatly increased when the dynamic forms facility is used to = increase=20 the<BR>> complexity of the forms.<BR>><BR>> AWK: we'll need = more=20 info here - the comment is a little too abstract.<BR>><BR>> 7. = Problems using Adobe PS and Flash were also reported and several=20 aspects<BR>> of these products are inaccessible. This includes an = inability to access<BR>> some buttons and to export the data to = more=20 accessible formats.<BR>><BR>> AWK: This is using the Flash = authoring=20 tool and Photoshop authoring tool?<BR>><BR>> 8. = Guidelines<BR>>=20 There seems to be two distinct pieces of work being done on=20 Guidelines:<BR>> a) EUAIN. (The Adaptive Content Network)<BR>> = <A=20 href=3D"http://www.euain.org" = target=3D_blank>www.euain.org</A><BR>> This=20 project has worked with CEN leading to a workshop on = accessible<BR>>=20 documentation. Details can be found at:<BR>> <<A=20 = href=3D"http://www.cen.eu/cenorm/businessdomains/businessdomains/isss/act= ivity/ws-dpa.asp"=20 = target=3D_blank>http://www.cen.eu/cenorm/businessdomains/businessdomains/= isss/activity/ws-dpa.asp</A>><BR>><BR>>=20 b) AIIM - The Enterprise Content Management Association<BR>> <A=20 href=3D"http://www.aiim.org" = target=3D_blank>www.aiim.org</A><BR>> The=20 Universal Accessibility Group of AIIM is working with the = National<BR>>=20 Federation of the Blind and others in the U. S. to develop = guidelines=20 on<BR>> making PDF documents accessible. See<BR>> <A=20 href=3D"http://www.aiim.org/standards/article.aspx?ID=3D27861"=20 = target=3D_blank>http://www.aiim.org/standards/article.aspx?ID=3D27861</A>= <BR>><BR>>=20 Are these two initiatives compatible? Are they working towards a = common=20 set<BR>> of guidelines? What is being done to implement these = guidelines?=20 How can we<BR>> as users know that a document is developed = according to=20 these guidelines?<BR>><BR>> AWK: I need to learn more about = EUAIN to=20 comment.will read up.<BR>><BR>> 9. Interoperability<BR>> = There is a=20 great need to develop the ability to convert PDF and PS = documents<BR>>=20 gracefully and without jumbling text into other formats including=20 XML,<BR>> DAISY, CHM, html and .BRF (Braille).<BR>><BR>> = AWK: Will=20 be interested in how you prioritize this list of = formats.<BR>><BR>>=20 10. Updating the Software<BR>> A box frequently appears asking if = the=20 software should be updated. This is<BR>> just an annoyance. Also, = the=20 download is very large so is not suitable to be<BR>> download by = many=20 people who can only afford relatively old computers and<BR>> slow = Internet access. There is a high unemployment rate amongst people=20 with<BR>> disabilities, thus they frequently do not have the = disposable=20 income to<BR>> afford faster machines and Internet=20 access.<BR>><BR>> AWK: A familiar comment - this doesn't = impact AT=20 users disproportionately,<BR>> it is troublesome for many. You = can=20 uncheck "check for updates" in the<BR>> preferences, but the = updates are=20 valuable when there are patches for<BR>> security or other=20 issues.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>=20 _______________________________________________<BR>> Irl-dean = mailing=20 list<BR>> <A=20 = href=3D"mailto:Irl-dean at list.eeng.dcu.ie">Irl-dean at list.eeng.dcu.ie</A><B= R>>=20 <A href=3D"http://list.eeng.dcu.ie/mailman/listinfo/irl-dean"=20 = target=3D_blank>http://list.eeng.dcu.ie/mailman/listinfo/irl-dean</A><BR>= ><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Irl-dean=20 mailing list<BR><A=20 = href=3D"mailto:Irl-dean at list.eeng.dcu.ie">Irl-dean at list.eeng.dcu.ie</A><B= R><A=20 href=3D"http://list.eeng.dcu.ie/mailman/listinfo/irl-dean"=20 = target=3D_blank>http://list.eeng.dcu.ie/mailman/listinfo/irl-dean</A></DI= V></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR=20 clear=3Dall><BR>-- <BR>D=F3nal Rice<BR>Senior ICT Advisor<BR>Centre = for Excellence=20 in Universal Design<BR>National Disability Authority<BR>email: <A=20 href=3D"mailto:drice at nda.ie">drice at nda.ie</A>, <A=20 href=3D"mailto:drice.nda at gmail.com">drice.nda at gmail.com</A><BR>Tel: + = 353 (0)1=20 608 0430<BR><A=20 = href=3D"http://www.universaldesign.ie">http://www.universaldesign.ie</A><= BR><A=20 = href=3D"http://www.accessIT.nda.ie">http://www.accessIT.nda.ie</A><BR></D= IV> <P> <HR> <P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>Irl-dean = mailing=20 = list<BR>Irl-dean at list.eeng.dcu.ie<BR>http://list.eeng.dcu.ie/mailman/list= info/irl-dean</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C917ED.04884FE0--
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